What’s Up WID: Housing Accessibility Transcripts

Ashley Inkumsah:
Hello everyone, and welcome back to What’s Up WID, the World Institute on Disability podcast, where we discuss what’s up in the disability community across the globe. If you’re new here, I’m your host, Ashley Inkumsah. On today’s episode, I’m chatting with Amy Francis-Smith, who is an architect, inclusive accessible design specialist, and multi award winning design council expert. Amy and I are having a conversation about the importance of accessible housing for people with disabilities.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Thank-you so much Amy, for joining me for today’s episode of our podcast, to discuss the importance of housing accessibility. Now before we get started, I do want to ask you a question that I ask all of our guests. Which is, how are you doing today?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Well today, firstly, thank-you for having me. Today I’m in an unusually warm UK. We’ve got probably our hottest day of the year. It’s 30 degrees centigrade, 86 fahrenheit? Which is about as good as it gets here, on a very rare occasion. I’m sure the rest of the world are laughing at us right now, but I’m feeling it. So apologies if I start wafting my fan.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. Do you prefer hotter weather, or cold weather? Because you guys kind of get both, so I’m curious to hear. Do you prefer when it’s hot enough, where you can comfortably go out and do stuff, versus it being super cold? What’s your preference on that?

Amy Francis-Smith:
I think I’m probably one of those contradictory people. When it’s hot, I want to be cold, and vice versa. I think that autumn is my favorite mid-way point, really.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Same here. Me too, yeah. I am an autumn fanatic. I love it. But yeah, I’m totally one of those contradictory people as well, so it’s not just you.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Yeah, I’m all about the jumper. Right now I’m all about, I’m looking forward to my jumper. But yeah, I love the sunshine too.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. Let’s hop into our questions. If you could tell us about your background in housing accessibility, and the work that you currently do, that would be great.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Sure. I’m an architect. My work and research has been focused around accessibility, probably for about 10 years now. That’s partly through my own experience, and witnessing that around people, close family and friends. It’s just influenced my practice. At the university, or through work. It’s developed over time, that I just recognize that so many people are struggling. Not many people are really realizing that. Or it’s something that is almost like a hidden housing crisis all over the world. It’s just not really being talked about enough. Especially within industry professionals.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Myself, I initially did some research around accessible housing. Obviously I’m a bit biased. I’m UK based, so I’ve got some UK facts I suppose, that I have found out. Roughly in the UK, there’s about 14.3 million disabled people. Which is about 19% of the population overall. So obviously that’s a spectrum of different abilities. They’ve maybe got vision impairment, or mobility. I think maybe wheelchair users are around 2% of the population. Might be slightly more around in more recent months.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Of that, I’ve found that 1.8 million disabled people are in need of accessible housing in the UK. That’s quite a large chunk of people that are in need. It is something that’s really touched my heart. Through speaking to so many people with my research, I’ve probably spoken to hundreds of disabled people, more specifically around their housing issues.

Amy Francis-Smith:
The themes that kept recurring were things like people feeling trapped, isolated, feeling a prisoner in their own home. Conflicted, because our home is meant to be our safe space, or where we relax, or where we have refuge, and come home at the end of the day and sigh a bit of relief. But for many people, they are fighting a daily battle inside this space that’s meant to be just for them. Being able to perform daily tasks becomes such a mammoth issue, that I couldn’t not focus my work around it, really.

Ashley Inkumsah:
I want to talk about some of those issues that make them feel trapped and isolated. What are some of the most common housing accessibility barriers that, in your field of work, that you’ve seen people with disabilities are facing?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Some of it can be really simple issues. Obviously I focus a bit more on built environments. Some of it’s a narrow doorway, or a step. Those things are very basic elements, that don’t take too much to design out, or to replace either, realistically. It might be a little bit of logistics. But if you’re building a new space, then just to not include those is really not rocket science.

Amy Francis-Smith:
I talk about accessible and inclusive design. Some of it is really basic elements. It could be something such as having slightly lower windows, or the fact that the handle is at a lower height. So if someone is spending a lot of time in bed, or sat in a chair, then they can actually see out to the world, or be able to have fresh air coming in that they can choose to adapt, and allow their own space to be responsive to them. Rather than having to ask someone.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Some of the things I’ve found in my discussions with a lot of people, some of the tasks that people weren’t able to carry out were things like putting their kids to bed, for years, because they can’t get upstairs. Or having to ask to be able to leave the home, not being able to independently. So they haven’t got their autonomy there.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Things such as washing in the kitchen sink, because they can’t get into the bathroom. We’ve all done a bit of maybe a flannel wet wipe every now and again, if you’re camping, or at a festival, or the water’s been cut off. But to do that daily for years is really demeaning, and it increases your stress levels. Because just being able to be in touch with water, or have a bath, or have a shower, it just feels nicer.

Amy Francis-Smith:
There’s so many aspects, there are issues that I had to help people to try and overcome. Because you can’t leave people in these situations long term, because it has such a massive effect on not only their physical health, ad their mental health, and those two are obviously wholistically linked. The impact could further drive down people’s general wellbeing. Especially if you’ve got a chronic illness linked in with maybe a mobility issue. Then you’ve got compounding effects, that are only ever going to make your living situation worse.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Yeah, and what makes it even worse is, the outside environment is so inaccessible for people with disabilities. Then like you said, your home is supposed to be your refuge, where you feel comfort. Imagine what it feels like when your outside environment is inaccessible, and so is your home. Where can you even have that sense of refuge and peacefulness and happiness, when everything is so inaccessible?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Yeah, completely. A lot of people ask me, more generally, not just around housing, but how could we improve our built environment? How could we improve our world, our spaces, for people with more mobility issues? I always say, people ask me about the workplace for instance. How could we bring more people into the workplace? How can we have a more diverse staff?

Amy Francis-Smith:
I say, “Well, how can you expect people to work for you, if you don’t consider the journey for them to get to the building?” Let alone, can they even get in that office? But you need to think backwards. How do they get there? Are they on the bus, or the train? Can they physically get on that train? In London for instance, I think a wheelchair user has to wait every third bus, to be able to get on the bus, for the space limit. The space there. Even though most of the buses, we’re very fortunate on the whole, do have ramps that come down, and do drop down to be able to let people on a lower, flatter level. You’ve still then got to factor that into your commutes, and your length of time.

Amy Francis-Smith:
I’ve brought it right back to the very beginning of, how does someone get up for the day? Can they get dressed, and sort their breakfast out? Get out of the house? The very foundations of how we live our lives. The elements that I consider to improve accessibility in a home. Like I said, they’re not particularly difficult. It’s slightly wider doorways. It could be something like having a downstairs bathroom, that could potentially be converted into a wet room at some point, if it’s necessary.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Considering things such as level access, both in the front door, but also out the back, so you can get into the garden or the yard. There’s loads of little, quite small details that can be done, just to enhance people’s lives.

Ashley Inkumsah:
You mentioned that a lot of these things are not difficult to do. So why do you think that there is such a resistance, or just a lack of awareness maybe, for housing accessibility? When these things are not that difficult to do.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It’s probably a multi-pronged reason. Obviously there’s going to be different variations around the world, of who has, where you’re living, and where you’re based. I think ultimately, there’s the top down issues. That’s coming down from government, and from policy makers, and legislation that’s in place.

Amy Francis-Smith:
You’ve also got things such as, in the UK for example, most of the housing stock is at least 50 to 70 years old, if not older. These kind of things just weren’t considered then. You’ve got a lot of existing homes that are, a Victorian terrace house for instance, that is absolutely beautiful. But it has quite a grand staircase going up to the front door, for instance. Those things just weren’t really particularly acknowledged at that time, when things were being built.

Amy Francis-Smith:
You’re then faced with things such as, it could be trying to adapt an existing building, versus trying to find a new build. As I was saying about legislation, it could be the local design guidance or regulations have different percentages. Not even everyone has them, to be fair, around accessible housing. Typically they’re more associated with social housing, or people that are in need of, maybe in lower income. There’s very specific categories of people that might be able to even join a waiting list to have more accessible housing.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Like I say, it’s a multi-pronged tactic. Even just about social awareness, and on a societal level. About people understanding that eight out of ten disabled people aren’t born with a disability. They’ve acquired it at some point through their lifetime. Obviously there’s a correlation between your age, and having a physical impairment. The older you are, the more likely you are to be in need of additional considerations for your home.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Again, it could just be having a few grab rails, or a slightly taller raised seat for toilets. It doesn’t need to be a whole home redesign, with a lift and a hoist and a stair lift, let’s say.

Amy Francis-Smith:
What I’ve found quite often is, some of the homes that are slightly more accessible are kitted out with products that are pretty ugly. You know exactly what I mean. It’s those cream, graying grab rails. There’s some weird awkward adaptions that have been done, that your grandma hates, let alone everyone else. You wouldn’t want it in your home. So people buy a house and go, “Well I don’t need this. I don’t want this,” and they strip it out. Then you’ve suddenly lost that home that had previously been slightly, could have potentially been used for someone that needed those elements. Then you’ve suddenly lost it. You’re going to have to regain it again.

Amy Francis-Smith:
One of the things I advocate for, and fully encourage, is that accessible design doesn’t have to be those awkward, ugly considerations that we all assume they are. It could be something very seamless and integrated, that is quite subtle. Generally I give talks, or lecture at universities, to architecture students who are, I’m trying to get in their early, before they’ve become jaded by the industry, and all the other regulations they need to adhere to. Get them to realize that good, inclusive design, or universal design, the principles, the whole point is that they’re not noticed by the general public. By people using them. But they universally make everyone’s lives easier and better.

Amy Francis-Smith:
That can be something such as, no doubt some people would assume today are parents, and they’ve had a fight with trying to get buggies and prams just through a front door, or up and down steps. Having those elements actually make everyone’s lives easier. Or things such as intergenerational housing, or having your grandma come to live with you.

Amy Francis-Smith:
There could be a temporary thing. You break your leg. Six months, and you’re shuffling up and down the stairs on your ass. Those kind of things can make everyone’s lives better.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Did you know WID offers accessibility solutions, and universal design services, that support companies and organizations of all sizes, via disability led surveys and focus groups, user experience testing, climate assessments and audits, training and advisory services? WID offers a service to drive better design and accessible experiences for employees, clients, and customers. Ready to learn more? Visit our website at www.WID.org/accessibility-services to book an appointment with us today.

Ashley Inkumsah:
What advice would you give to architects, and even landscapers and other housing authority personnel, when it comes to building accessible housing? Because it can seem overwhelming, for those people, like you mentioned, who are jaded. Who have been doing things one way for so long. Who do they then change course, and build accessible housing? What advice would you give to them?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Obviously it stems from the legal responsibility of your area, or area code, or your local authority. You’ve got to start with your baseline minimum. The UK for instance, the building regulations, Part M, which is a document that focuses around accessibility, is often used as quite a high quality standard to achieve for access. But it’s actually the barest minimum. It’s not something to aim for, it’s the baseline legal requirement.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Obviously other places will have similar, or hopefully will have a similar type of standard. But I would recommend people looking at Part M, or if you want to get really technical, there’s BS8300, which is British Standards. Which goes into a lot more depth and suggestions around a whole pile of different sectors, so not just housing. But it could be public spaces, hospitals, theaters, shopping centers, the works.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It’s about realizing that even if you don’t achieve a fully … Basically, try your best. Try to be empathetic, and to consider that there are people beyond your own lived experience. It could be something as simple as just asking your local, asking your friend. Asking, I’m sure most people have connections. I always really am a big advocate for user led design. So rather than having the architect ego say, “Oh yeah, I know what people need.”

Amy Francis-Smith:
You can’t presume to know what it’s like to be blind. Personally, I have a hearing impairment, and I’ve got a bunch of other stuff. I’ve previously been a wheelchair user. But it’s not a lived experience for me, so I can’t presume to know what people’s preferences are.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It’s also acknowledging that, I do say to people, I don’t believe you can have a fully accessible building or space. Because it’s so contradictory. A wheelchair user is generally going to prefer a lift, or a ramp. Because, for obvious reasons, there’s no stairs there. But I know a lot of people who are crutch users, who hate ramps. Because quite often, they feel a bit unsteady. The angle can hurt their knees, or their hips. If it’s icy or wet, then it’s a slip hazard.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It’s about having choice. It’s about recognizing the user group, and considering the types of people that are going to be in that area. I did a bit of work for a charity that is for children with vision impairments. There’s going to be a high percentage of people who obviously have vision impairment. But also, there’s going to be a high percentage of guide dogs, or assisted dogs, for those people. Then considering that as an aspect of, “Okay, well where do the dogs go? Have they got somewhere to go to the toilet? Have they got drinking water?” It suddenly then has a knock-on effect.

Amy Francis-Smith:
To get back to the actual question that you asked, what’s the advice? I think it’s just having that extra level of consideration and empathy there. Not just saying, “Oh, that will do,” because you’ve ticked a box, because you’ve got a toilet and a lift. That’s tokenistic. It’s the barest minimum gesture, rather than actually considering the fact that our world is quite diverse. It’s actually an exciting design challenge, personally.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Starting from disability as being almost, not a problem to resolve, but it adds fuel to that kind of initial brief. For a designer to think, “Okay. Actually, this is quite exciting. I can come at this from a completely different angle than I normally would do, or I’ve been taught at university or at school, or college.” Use that as inspiration to create something, that is actually quite drastically different from what a lot of your other peers might be creating. So yeah, it is possible. I say, even if it’s just, something is better than nothing. Because I know someone will thank you for it.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Right, and we’ve talked about universal and inclusive design. Why is it so important that that is something that’s utilized and prioritized? Why does it matter so much?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Well, from a few points I’ve mentioned already, even just on a very selfish, individualistic level, it might mean that you in the future could use that space. You might suddenly have an issue that might come through into your life, or a loved one. Quite often it’s not until people have a personal experience of something, do they suddenly realize, “Oh, this world is not designed for us. It’s not created for us.” It can suddenly be quite a big headache.

Amy Francis-Smith:
People maybe had an accident, or maybe there’s a difficult childbirth. Any different situation. You then have other, bigger issues that you need to tackle. It could just be going to medical appointments, or trying to get funding. Or try to get help in other ways. People shouldn’t have to also then argue and fight for the ability to get into a shopping center, or access a bank. Those elements just really hinder people’s day to day lives.

Amy Francis-Smith:
I’m here to help give a voice to people who are having to fight those daily battles, and haven’t got the energy and the time to have every single fight with every single shopkeeper.

Amy Francis-Smith:
The clue is also in the name, universal is everyone. We all benefit from it. There’s a level of integration that every member of society will appreciate. I think quite a lot of us have, all around the world, obviously through COVID and through the pandemic, a lot of people got told, “Stay at home. You work here now. This is your life. You’re in this box.” People started to realize, “Oh, this space does not work for me. This is really awkward. I’ve got backache, I haven’t got a desk that’s very ergonomic. I’m trying to awkwardly sit on a sofa,” with your laptop on your desk.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It’s those elements, that you realize that when your space doesn’t work for you, it makes life difficult. It adds that extra level of stress that people just don’t need. It gave, I believe, quite a few people an exposure to realizing that other people have been facing, maybe not exactly the same, but a similar type of awkward place. Where a lot of people have moved now, to find places that have outdoor spaces, or better fresh air. Because reprioritizing how we want to live our lives.

Amy Francis-Smith:
For disabled people, that just isn’t always an option. To be able to just move. Because the housing just isn’t there to move to. Or equally, if you have got a home that does work for you, a lot of people have to stay there, because where else do you go? The renter sector is probably one of the worst for people with mobility issues.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Because landlords aren’t massively enthused, or haven’t been educated or made aware, that if they actually had more accessible properties to let out, you’ve actually got a niche market, that people will rent those, and will stay there for probably quite a long time. They’ll be the perfect tenant. They shouldn’t have to be thankful, but they will be thankful that they have an accessible home. Because it’s such a restrictive market.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Even on a very baseline financial business mindset, having things more accessible actually brings a wider range of people into your company, into your business, into your whatever. In the UK, sorry to keep referencing the UK, but stats, there’s something we call the Purple Pound. £249 billion annually is the collective spend for disabled people. That’s disposable income, that’s the money that disabled people have choice and options to distribute as they see fit.

Amy Francis-Smith:
That’s a large market that is untapped. Businesses, ignoring the legal side, the ethical, the moral issues, that we should do because it’s better for everyone. Just on a business level, you’re opening up a potential boom there.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. I think of the fact that, people with disabilities are obviously so financially disadvantaged. We talked about earlier, the idea that older homes tend to be less accessible versus, newer homes or newer buildings are more accessible. But of course, newer buildings cost significantly more money to live in.

Ashley Inkumsah:
How would you say that people with disabilities can advocate for themselves, when they’re living in inaccessible spaces? Especially when they’re so financially disadvantaged. How does one even begin to advocate for themselves?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Well, it’s a big one. I suppose again, there’s varying ways you can tackle it. It could be quite a small, macro scale, where you discuss amongst your community, or your neighbor. Or you try and raise awareness in a much smaller area. It could be using social media, to raise awareness and campaign around the points. Or to try and help influence, and explain, show people, “This is how a lot of people are living. This is how my day to day tasks are hindered.” Use that as an example, to help people recognize it.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Because most people, I say people, the general public have no idea, realistically. Unless it comes to them, or it comes to their family member, and suddenly realize that, “Oh, this system is not set up for us. There is no help there.” Everyone just probably assumes, “Oh, the government will give you some aid. Or there’ll be somewhere for you to move to locally.” That just isn’t the case often.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It’s about making some noise, and it doesn’t need to be, by all means go chain yourself to a railing. I did not advocate that, but you know what I mean. There’s different ways you can do it. You can make a lot of noise from your bed if you need to.

Amy Francis-Smith:
It could also be around talking to local authorities. Trying to discuss, on a wider level. Trying to campaign on a policy level. A lot of the work that I do, I’m targeting multiple levels. But I do quite a lot of campaigning, changing the design building regulations. Which is a national policy. By all means, I can help multiple people on an individual basis, or a local area basis. Or I can help teach other architects and designers, to then disseminate that information out, and hopefully it seeds through into other people’s practice.

Amy Francis-Smith:
But I realize that the only way that real change can happen, is on a much wider scale. I targeted the higher end, so that the law is there to back you up. Then rather than having housing developers or builders meeting the local planning policy, or the local percentage allocations of accessible housing as a token, as a good marketing thing. Of, “Oh, aren’t we good, that we’ve done this charitable thing that is out of the faith of our hearts.” Where actually, if everyone has to do it, then there is much more of a widespread mandate.

Amy Francis-Smith:
I think, I don’t want to have to make disabled people do all the work. They shouldn’t have to be the ones that are fighting this. Unfortunately, quite often they are, and having to fight a lot of other battles as well, at the same time. Personally, sometimes speaking on behalf of disabled people, but I’m also disabled myself. About eight years ago, I was bedridden for several years. I’ve got mast cell activation syndrome, which was putting me into anaphylaxis almost daily. I was in the hospital. I’ve got Crohn’s, which affects my joints, and my mobility.

Amy Francis-Smith:
On the outside, I look like functioning, normal human. But I’ve also got partial hearing loss. I’ve known chronic fatigue, I’ve known struggle, I’ve known having my life extremely limited to four walls. I’m quite fortunate that I’ve been able to have an increased energy, and through those experiences, given me passion and drive to help other people. Because I’m quite fortunate. I’m privileged that I live in the UK. I’ve had an education. Maintenance bursaries, that meant I’ve been able to access university. It’s not free for everyone, but it wasn’t free for me either, but I had some help.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Being able to be an architect as a professional, in the construction industry, in the design industry. It’s meant that I can be an advocate for people who don’t get to go into those kinds of rooms, who don’t get to talk to the people in power, to try and help things. Everyone has their own specialism, or way of tackling things.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Some people wanted to bang on our drum, and make a lot of noise. Other people would rather do things through the internet. Or maybe it could be as simple as emailing your local shopkeeper. Or asking your local representative, “Why are you not representing me?” Like I say, it shouldn’t be up to disabled people. Hopefully, the more I educate other people, and the more other people become aware of the topic, and obviously the work that you guys are doing yourselves, it spreads out to people who are hopefully allies, and can help be that voice for people who aren’t there.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Quite often, I ask people, “Look around the room, and ask yourself, who isn’t here? Why aren’t they here? How can I help bring everyone to that table?” It could be on a very small level. It could be on a much larger level. We’ve all got a position that we can help people.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. My last question is an overarching question, of all that we’ve been discussing today. Why does accessible housing matter? Why is it important? What is one takeaway that you would want our listeners to come away from this episode with? Why does housing accessibility matter so much?

Amy Francis-Smith:
Housing accessibility matters, is your quote here. Your headline for this. It matters because we all deserve it. Ultimately, we all deserve autonomy, dignity, independence. It’s a basic human right, to be able to be treated as everyone else is. I say, everyone else living in homes that might not be perfect for them. Might not be the ideal situation. They might want to move. But people have freedom and choice and options.

Amy Francis-Smith:
If you’re living in an inaccessible space, you are really limiting your life, or having your life limited. It’s just about realizing that everyone deserves empathy. We, I say we, as a society, designers, architects, landscapers, we have designed and built our world. Someone, men, women, made the world. That someone’s thought about, “I’ll put these steps in,” or, “I will make this too narrow,” or, “I will make this beautiful thing that only half the people of the population can visit.” There’s no need for it. We’ve designed it in, so we can design it out. It’s as simple as that.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. I just think that, again, I want to emphasize what you said earlier. Obviously the onus is not on people with disabilities to advocate for themselves. The onus is for the people that create and that build these spaces. I think that if we all come together to prioritize accessibility in the built environment, accessibility in our homes, it’s going to make a world of difference for everyone.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Because at the end of the day, everyone benefits from accessibility. It’s all of our responsibilities. It’s not a luxury, it’s a necessity at this point.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Completely, yeah. I think one of the other things I like to help infuse, I suppose, is I don’t want to have … It shouldn’t always be non-disabled people or able bodied people designing for disabled people. It should be with, and it should be by. I’m a huge advocate for bringing more disabled people into the conversation, into the industry, into education spaces. Being part of, why are there not more disabled architects? In the UK, there are unregistered architects. You have to legally be registered to call yourself an architect here.

Amy Francis-Smith:
1% of all architects have declared themselves with a disability, and 6% have preferred not to disclose. That shows you as a potential that there’s more of a stigma around having a disability, than there is announcing it, almost. There’s a huge area where we could all benefit from having more diverse voices, alternative life experiences and opinions. That depth and breadth of different background can really help influence a design.

Ashley Inkumsah:
The work that you’re doing is such a great testament to that. That people with disabilities have to have a seat at the table, when building environments for people with disabilities. So totally, totally agree with you on that point.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Back to the classic slogan, “Nothing about us without us.”

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. That’s exactly it. You exemplify that every day in the work that you do. Really appreciate you for having this conversation with me, and in all the amazing work that you do to advocate for people with disabilities. It’s just been such a pleasure to sit down and chat with you today.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Thank-you so much. I really appreciate it. Hopefully it helps give people a little bit of fire and inspiration, to fight the good fight. Like I say, I’ve chosen my battle. My corner, that I try and help influence the world with. I don’t mind what it is. You could help the old lady on your street. It could be picking up litter. It could be around sustainability. It could be around making accessible transport. I don’t mind.

Amy Francis-Smith:
As long as people are enthused to help make our world better collectively. It could be such a small, it could be a massive thing. But if we can all choose our own little battles, hopefully, collectively we all win the war.

Ashley Inkumsah:
We all have our parts to play when it comes to accessibility, for sure.

Amy Francis-Smith:
Yeah, completely.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Thank-you so much once again to Amy, for this wonderful conversation about housing accessibility. It’s always a pleasure to chat with people with disabilities, who are working diligently to make society more inclusive for other people with disabilities. I’d like to also thank you all at home for tuning in to today’s episode.

Ashley Inkumsah:
I want to let you know that, because accessibility is a top priority for WID, this episode, and all of our past episodes of our podcast, are available with transcripts, as well as American Sign Language, on our website, at www.wid.org/whats-up-wid. I hope you all enjoyed today’s episode, and I can’t wait to have you back again for our next episode. Make sure that you’re following our podcast on your favorite podcast platform, so you’re notified when the next episode drops, so you never miss out on what’s up with WID.