What’s Up WID: Global Disability Rights, Justice and Inclusion Transcripts

Ashley Inkumsah:

Hello everyone, and welcome or welcome back to What’s Up WID, the World Institute on Disability Podcast, where we discuss what’s up in the disability community. My name is Ashley Inkumsah, and I’m super excited to be chatting with WID’s former Executive Director and the current Vice President of Global Disability Inclusion at Expedia, Kathy Martinez. Today, Kathy and I are going to be discussing global disability rights, justice and inclusion. Kathy, how are you doing today?

Kathy Martinez:

I’m having a great day, Ashley. Thanks for including me in the What’s Up WID podcast series.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Yeah, I’m so excited for this conversation.

Kathy Martinez:

Me too.

Ashley Inkumsah:

So if you could tell us a little bit about your background and the work that you did at WID as executive director. I know you were the executive director from 2005 until 2009. So if you can tell us about your background prior to that, and then the work you did at WID, and then everything that you’ve been doing since? That’d be great.

Kathy Martinez:

My goodness. Okay.

Well, just to describe myself, I am a Latinx woman with salt and pepper hair, more salt than pepper. I’m blind and I’m wearing, I think, it’s turquoise top. I am sitting in my house in the Bay Area. And gosh, to begin, so I started working for WID in 1992 as a project assistant. One thing that I want to mention is that in those days, WID was working very closely with the HIV/AIDS movement, the ADA had passed just two years ago, and one of the sticking points between the disability community and Congress was that the disability community insisted that people with HIV/AIDS be classified as having a disability. So I was hired to work on a program to build bridges between the HIV/AIDS community and the disability community. There was a lot of fear and, I think, misunderstanding about each community from the other. There was a lot of misunderstanding about HIV/AIDS from the disability community and vice versa.

My passion as a young person and as still an old person, one of my passions has been learning about other cultures and how disability impacts culture and how culture impacts disability. So when I could, very soon after, in I would say 1993, I joined the international division at WID where I was lucky enough to lead some projects in Central America, both in El Salvador and Honduras. I worked closely with Bruce Curtis, who at that time was leading our projects in Russia and in Central Asia. And the thing about my experience at WID was that I had a lot of mentors. Judy was my boss between ’92 and ’93, so for about a year. And of course Ed Roberts was still around until ’95. But I was encouraged to grow and really was able to spread my wings and learn. I learned so much from them and from all the other brilliant thinkers that were at WID at that time. There was so many amazing thinkers who really impacted the global disability space, like Simi Litvak and personal assistance, and of course Judy in lots of different spaces, including international.

And so I was very interested, in addition to travel, I’ve always been passionate about economic justice and how people with disabilities, if they are able, can contribute to the workforce. And so I helped lead a program in 2000. I think 2001 was when we got the grant for Latinos or Latinx with Disabilities, depending on your generation. And it was all about work. They were called technical assistance centers. There are a number of technical assistance centers that focused on other ethnicities. But I think my favorite story about it was called Proyecto Visión that WID ran, was that we got cooperation from the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce to work with us. So I really wanted to work with minority owned businesses, given the incidence of disability is higher in minority communities. So things just grew from there.

I started getting contracts with corporations to consult regarding setting up a disability welcoming space. And then I just had more and more responsibility. I became deputy director after I led the international work. And then finally in 2005, I did become the executive director. And I think the thing that I am, well, I’m proud of so many things, at that time WID was about 30 staff. We had very strong work in the international space, in corporate consulting, in Disability Benefits 101, where we had Brian McDonald at the time leading that project. And I don’t mean to drop names, I’m sorry, I probably, a lot of younger folks won’t know who that is, but he really was a genius around the Ticket to Work program and around just how to get people more money and how to help people gain more economic self-sufficiency, or maybe that’s not the best word. Just how could they just get more money and still keep benefits?

And it was very complicated because everything was state to state. I was also, again, I think one of the things I’m most proud of that I worked on at WID was the website Disability World. It came out of the International Disabilities Exchanges and Studies project. It’s no longer in print, but you can still find amazing articles that were developed. And that was a collaborative. Believe me, I cannot take credit for anything I’m mentioning. It was always as part of a team.

I’ll stop. I know I’ve kind of rambled on.

Ashley Inkumsah:

No, yeah. It’s hard to even start to begin to talk about all of the amazing work that you’ve done over the past few decades. So I know that there’s a lot to go over and excited to get into more of that today. And you mentioned your work that you did with Judy. We all are still mourning her loss. We lost her on March 4th, and we’ve been all celebrating and remembering all of the amazing contributions that she made to disability rights. And I would love to hear from you, if you could share some of your memories that you have with Judy Heumann, that would be awesome.

Kathy Martinez:

Well, thank you. There’s so many. I can say, let’s talk just about the WID days. So when I worked at WID, Judy was one of the leaders of WID along with Ed Roberts and Joan Leon. And so I would make lunch dates with her, and of course, we would inevitably have five or six people join us, which was always great, but I could never really talk to her. It was hard to get time alone. So one of the things that I would do is sometimes she had to go to the bathroom, she would ask me if I would help her in the bathroom. And it was perfect because yes, I did. And yes, that was kind of the time when we could have some of the best talks. So yeah, she needed some personal assistance services, and I was able to do it.

It was interesting. In those days, we were each other’s accommodations when there was not money to hire personal assistance. And so that was an opportunity for me to just maybe have some time with Judy for five or 10 minutes. Judy, she really helped so many of us grow and encouraged us to take steps that we would never have taken, I think, had it not been for her. Really, I never thought I could go to El Salvador alone, and I did in 1993. And it was because she just said, “You got to go.” So I did.

Ashley Inkumsah:

She was such a leader in disability rights and just such a bold and brazen person and someone who wasn’t afraid to get in people’s faces and just fight for change. What do you think are some specific steps that young leaders of today can take to foster movements and disability rights in 2023 like Judy did?

Kathy Martinez:

Well, I think the young leaders of today have really identified some key issues that need to be addressed, specifically people who are multiply marginalized. When I was growing up, I was one of the very few non-white leaders. And I wouldn’t say I was a founder of the disability rights movement, but I was definitely at the sit-in, although I was outside the building, I want to be very clear I was not inside the building, but I didn’t reconnect with the disability rights movement until 1979 when I got together with my late partner, Kitty Cone. And she was really the one that brought me in.

I, of course, had been around other blind people, but I’d never really been around other, a group of, a cross-disability group. And I, certainly up until that time, had never understood the concept of disability pride. So when I met Judy in 1977, but very briefly, and then I got to know her and got to spend time with her through my relationship with Kitty. And then of course, I got to know a lot of the Bay Area disability leaders, and then at some point the national and then international disability leaders at a pretty young age.

But back to your question, I think really understanding the intersectionality between disability and race, disability and gender, disability and LGBTQ status and non-binary status, I think is very important. We are a complicated bundle of contradictions in many ways. And the disability movement did start out as a pretty white, middle class, values-based movement, but it’s changing. And there are more people of color who are leaders and who are influencers and who are bringing their voice to the forefront of change. So I feel like, as somebody who’s in their 60s, it’s my opportunity to learn from you guys, from your leadership. I’m very happy to be a student of the young disability rights leadership of today.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that we all certainly have so much to learn from each other. I think that there’s so much that your generation was doing that I would love to see more of from our generation. And I think that there needs to be a space made for young leaders to be able to pave the way and advocate for rights and justice and inclusion as well. So I think that we all need to work together and learn from each other in order to get to collective liberation together.

And you mentioned people of color leaders that are emerging right now, and I want to talk a little bit more about that. Multiply marginalized people, as you know, in the disability rights movement, a lot of times people of color were not really included in those conversations, but obviously the disability justice framework tells us that we need the leadership of those who are most impacted. So how do you think that we can prioritize the inclusion of multiply marginalized disabled people, such as people of color and disabled women, and the LGBTQIA+ community? How do you think that we can prioritize their inclusion in the movement for disability rights, justice and inclusion?

Kathy Martinez:

I think we have some really strong bridge builders between the disability rights movement and social justice movements. It’s very clear, like the Ford Foundation has realized that disability is a civil rights issue and not a charity issue. So I think building bridges between other social justice movements. I think being able-bodied is a temporary condition. I think building bridges between the aging community, which age is the largest, people who are age, or sorry… Disability is acquired by people who are aging. I think it’s people who are aging have the highest acquisition of disability.

So I think bringing people together, like you said, is critical. And listening to each other and understanding that, I think, there’s been a lot of change in the disability rights movement. So listening to young people I think is very critical. But also understanding that the leaders of the movement have something to teach as well. And leadership is a learned skill. And so, like you said, listening to each other, building bridges between social justice movements, understanding that disability impacts people of color, at least in the US, at a higher rate, understanding that primarily women are impacted by the task of caregiving. It’s changing, but it has been, and it still is primarily women. So there’s just a lot of communication, I think, that needs to happen.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Yeah, and I think that you have a really unique perspective on this being a Latina disabled woman. What are some of the challenges that you faced because of your multiply marginalized identity, and what were some of the lessons that you learned along the way that you can offer as advice to others?

Kathy Martinez:

Well, first of all, I was very privileged, because I came up in Berkeley. And so I’m also Queer and I also identify as a lesbian. And so when I was coming up in my 20s and 30s and 40s an on, I was very lucky to be able to live, to bring my whole self to wherever I was. Not everywhere, but at least in my home where I lived, I was privileged to not have to hide various elements of myself. So I want to get that out there that a lot of people who are people of color, and Queer, and disabled don’t get to bring their whole selves to the fore, so to speak.

It was hard. In conversations, I would say in the early 80s, when the Independent Living Movement was being founded and being actualized, to talk about issues that people with disabilities in the Latinx community faced. Like so much of, when I was coming into the movement, was based on, at 18 you get out of your house and live on SSI. Well, people, A, they can’t do that now because nobody can afford to live on benefits. But B, in a lot of cultures, leaving at 18 was just not what you did.

The understanding that a lot of times in Latinx culture, we view disability as a family issue, not a public issue. So when I was leading Proyecto Visión, talking to Latinx parents of people who had become injured, let’s say, absolutely did not agree that personal assistance services was something they wanted in their house. And of course, as people are more assimilated into the society then things change, but people who have traditional cultural values, this is something that the movement, I think we all need to think about: that everyone’s values are not White, middle class values. If we still have a middle class. Anyway, that’s a whole other conversation.

So yeah, that was very interesting to me, especially having traveled so much and bringing my American mindset, I really had to really undo, unlearn a lot of things that I thought were just tried and true when I was in another country. An example was, I’ll never forget this, because I was, oh, I really felt like, “Gosh, what an ugly American I could be.” We were initially in Russia, and it was just after Perestroika, and we said, “Well, we want people to brainstorm.” Well, the concept of brainstorming at that time, we were just so sure we knew what we were talking about, but we didn’t. So since then, I’ve gone into other countries with a loose plan, and I have been prepared for that plan to be turned completely upside down. And that has been a much better approach.

Ashley Inkumsah:

And also, I want to talk about your identity as a Queer woman. And you talked about the culture in the ’80s and how things were different. And I think now with everything that’s going on with the attacks that are being waged against the trans community and the LGBTQIA community as a whole, how do you think that the community can advocate for themselves against all of the barrage of disinformation and bigotry that’s being levied towards the LGBTQIA community?

Kathy Martinez:

Well, first of all, it’s fair, it’s really important to say that the communication capabilities were so different in the ’80s and ’90s, and even the odds of two, now communication happened so quickly. I think that we want people to be allies to us. I think we have to learn to be allies to other communities, especially in circumstances where we expect people to be allies to us. I think one of the things that has helped me is being asked and being brought in as an ally. We have a lot to offer other communities. We have a lot of strategic insights, and there’s just so much that we have to offer that other communities can use. And I think a lot of times we are at the end of the spectrum where we think we’re the ones that need the “help”, quote, unquote. But I think we have a lot to offer other communities. So what I say about this barrage of hate and bigotry is we have to put ourselves out there to support communities that are getting, their rights are being destroyed in certain states.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Absolutely. Yeah. Again, I think collective solidarity and collective liberation, cross-movement solidarity, cross-disability solidarity, that’s what we need more than ever right now.

Kathy Martinez:

I agree. Well said.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Absolutely. And the last question that I want to ask you is, WID is celebrating our 40th anniversary and we’re really trying to reflect on the past 40 years and trying to plan what will the next decade look like and beyond that look like. What do you think, as our former executive director, what do you think we should be prioritizing for the next 10 years and beyond?

Kathy Martinez:

Well, first of all, I have to say I’m one former executive director. There’s been a few.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Yes. Absolutely. Yes, for sure.

Kathy Martinez:

So I think focusing on, I really can’t stress enough that we have to remember the word world in World Institute on Disability. So working with our state department and our US Agency for International Development and other private international development contractors to, I think, establish more international disability work within different parts of the world. I think WID played a very crucial role in establishing the sharing of information. We shared our mistakes. We got better as we went along, not to be so prescriptive, and, “This is how we do it, so this is how you should do it.” We realize that everybody’s context is different. And so I think there’s a maturity in our movement. We always have things to learn. We can never forget that. I think we all must try to have a beginner’s mindset all the time.

But I think we have matured as a movement and we do have things to offer. I think we also have a lot to learn from things that are happening in other countries. So that’s one thing, just keeping the international dialogue open, hopefully getting programs to bring people here, to send people abroad to learn. ‘Cause we have just as much to learn from other countries as they have from us, and we cannot forget that as a movement. And I think also focusing on issues of multiply marginalized people with disabilities, whether that’s women or LGBTQ. And then remembering some of the old things, like don’t forget about personal assistant laws and able accounts and things that WID worked very hard to establish in various states and across the country. So yeah, those are my ideas for now.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Yeah, that’s a great list of ideas. There’s certainly, a lot of work has been done in the last 40 years, but there’s so much more work to do. So I think that those three things are a great place to start, for sure.

Kathy Martinez:

Yeah. And also, can I just say, focusing on, we have to open the tent a little bit and we’re getting better at this, but I think opening the tent up more to people who are long haul COVID survivors and people who may not have an evident disability. I think there is still prioritization for people who have evident disabilities, and as somebody who is doing their best to try to be an ally around this issue, I just think it’s something in the disability community that we have to be better at.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Yeah, for sure. Just this idea that there’s this hierarchy of disability that only apparent disabilities are somehow more significant than non-apparent disabilities. I think definitely we need to work on eliminating that hierarchy for sure. Because hierarchies are always going to marginalize people ultimately, and that’s what we’re trying to get rid of.

Kathy Martinez:

Right. “There is no hierarchy of oppression,” to quote Audre Lorde.

Ashley Inkumsah:

Oh, love that. I love that quote. Such a big fan of her. Well, thank you so much, Kathy. This was a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed just reflecting on the past and trying to brainstorm on the future with you. This was a fabulous conversation.

Kathy Martinez:

Ashley, thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.