What’s Up WID: Black Disabled Womanhood Transcripts

Ashley Inkumsah:
Hello everyone, and welcome or welcome back to What’s Up WID, the World Institute on Disability Podcast, where we discuss what’s up in the global disability community. If you’re new here, I’m your host, Ashley Inkumsah. And on today’s episode, I’m excited to be joined by the amazing Keri Gray. Keri Gray is a cancer survivor, entrepreneur, speaker, and facilitator. She’s the CEO of Keri Gray Consulting Group where they strive to create professional communities of understanding through disability and racial justice education. She’s also the founder of the National Alliance of Melanin Disabled Advocates, which creates space for disabled leaders of color and BIPOC allies to gather, learn, connect, and grow around racial and disability justice. And today, Keri and I are going to be discussing Black disabled womanhood. So Keri, how are you doing today?

Keri Gray:
I’m doing good. We’ve entered into fall season and currently it is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and there’s all types of activities going on where folks are talking about disability in the workplace, talking about expanding the organizational cultures to be more inclusive. It’s just a really intentional month, and so that tends to energize me and just feeling good.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Totally. Yeah. A lot of the work that we do here at WID does revolve specifically around employment, and we actually just released a blog post today about how to create a inclusive work environment for people with disabilities. So yeah, it’s really important for us to practice what we preach and just keep spreading the word and what better time than now in October when it’s National Disability Employment Awareness Month. Always have to get that out. It’s very long.

Keri Gray:
It is. It is a little long.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Yes. But very important. So speaking of employment, I want to talk to you about your experiences professionally. So for those of our listeners who may not be familiar with your work, can you tell us a little bit more about your professional work in the disability field as well as your personal experiences with disability?

Keri Gray:
Yes. Well, so you know what? I think I’ll start by sharing a little bit personally because that really laid a foundation to what I do today. So for me, I identify as a Black disabled woman, and I love being Black. Growing up, I genuinely loved our culture, I loved the ways in which we speak, I love our style. I just knew the mannerisms that had me so committed to our community at an early age. I also grew up on the south side of Longview, Texas, and it was interesting growing up where I used to read about what it was like for folks growing up on the other side of the railroad tracks. And here I was living a very modern day example of what happens when you have one side of town that is predominantly Black and brown people, and noticing just some disparities and some differences from the other side of town.

And so pretty early on I learned about advocacy and I learned the need to, as much as I love my community and my people, without advocacy, we have different access to education. We have less access to quality grocery stores. Even the laws and legislation on one side of town was different from the other. So I had that balance in notion that in the workplace, it becomes important that we’re creating initiatives that have real world impact. I would say that journey of identity was a bit different when it comes to disability. I was diagnosed with osteosarcoma bone cancer when I was eight years old and went through chemo and all the different things. And when I came out of that experience, I had an amputation on my right leg and hearing loss, and I didn’t know what to do with that identity. I didn’t know how to enter back into school. And as much as I would be good with my melanin and my hair and all these different things about my blackness, the disability side, I just kind of minimized.

And so it was when I found the disability community when I was in my 20s, that I began to understand there’s history here, there’s culture here, there’s rights that need to be advocated for. So this principle of accepting and embracing Black disabled womanhood became a framework for me in my professional life. Moving forward, I’ve had the experience in my work to build programs for people with disabilities, educational opportunities, getting folks in corporate America, getting folks in the live events industry, getting folks in all sorts of different pockets of space. But I was constantly battling between am I my advocating for disabled folks or am I advocating for people of color? And that segregation of one side of town versus the other side of town, I feel exists very much in the workplace today.

And so what I do is I come into organizations and companies and I help them genuinely flesh out inclusion, knowing that the repercussions of segregation in the workplace are separate but equal is not a concept that is real. If we’re operating out of this separation of you can be disabled but not Black, you can be Black but not disabled, then that means something in terms of our policy initiatives, that means something in terms of our workplace practices. And so I go in and I help educate folks and get them thinking and moving towards a more inclusive framework.

Ashley Inkumsah:
I think a lot of times in communities of color, there’s this pressure to choose between your marginalized identities. It’s are you Black or are you disabled? It’s always this pressure to choose when human beings, we’re such rich tapestries of humans. We’re not a monolith even within the disability community, the disability community is not a monolith, and there’s a lot of pressure to feel like you have to choose. And there’s also a fear that a lot of, and rightfully so, that a lot of Black people have of the stakes of identifying as disabled and further marginalizing yourself, it’s scary.

Keri Gray:
It is. I mean, not to be controversial, but it makes me think of Kanye not because of all the things that are going on with him. But when I think about Kanye and the moment that we found out he was disabled, how the world and how the Black community, how so many different groups responded to him, the immediate ableism that we started to witness, the immediate, every time he says something, “Oh, he’s bipolar. He needs to get therapy.” Like da da, da, da.

Ashley Inkumsah:
“He’s not taking his medication,” or one way or another, something.

Keri Gray:
Right. And I note that example because that is a real world consequence of so many people in our community. Even within the Black community specifically, one of the things that we’re doing, you mentioned that I founded an organization called The NAMD Advocates, and we have a summit coming up on December 12th called Our Presence Is Our Power. And one of the sessions that we’re hosting is called Being Sick in a Black Body. And it is a space for us to examine the experiences of Black disabled people and is a space for us to examine ableism within the Black community. It’s time for us to wrestle with these concepts of how does ableism show up in the Black church? How does ableism show up in our HBCUs? How does ableism show up in our community practices as a people?

And so I think we’re in a place and time where there’s so many advocates who genuinely care about those concepts. They want to see transformative changes within the organizations and companies that allows for people to be both Black and disabled at the same time. But we got some work to do in order for that to happen.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. And I’m curious to know, and I’m sure it’s still an ongoing journey, how have you, as a Black disabled woman, how have you had to navigate the world through these many intersections that you live in, specifically through the intersections of racism, ableism, misogyny, misogyny, misogynoir, so on and so forth? How have you been able to navigate that? And again, knowing that it’s obviously an ongoing never ending process.

Keri Gray:
It is a journey. I will definitely tell you that, I consider myself pretty confident person, I’m out here doing my thing, but there’s always layers and levels to that. When I think about this idea of self-identification, self ID in terms of being a person with a disability, formally or informally with those around you is often first a matter of trust. Can I trust you with my story? Can I trust you to have a clear perception of who I am, and all of these different things that come out? And that impacts people because it doesn’t matter how … Your disabilities can be invisible, they can be clear as day, I have a prosthetic limb that is hard to miss, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be open about it if I don’t trust the people around me.

And so I think the ability to have dialogue about who you authentically are, your ideas, your thoughts, your creativity of how you bring man to the workplace is a challenge when you’re navigating knowing that ableism is real, knowing that sexism is real, knowing that racism and all of these different things can combine and be a reason for folks to say no, to dismiss you, to start to treat you weird. All sorts of things have happened. So I think navigating authentic identity is a part of that. Navigating freedom of expression is a part of that. I’m a Black woman day in and day out. You’re going to see gold chains, you’re going to see the hair laid , you’re going to hear me say dope. You’re going to hear those things.

But I’ve mentioned that because when I think about our people who are underrepresented in the workplace, who are experiencing disparities, their ability to have freedom of expression is constantly questioned. Our code switching is still a thing. All of these different things come up. So I want to note that because part of it is for us as people with disabilities who have different intersections, to be able to lean into the fullness of who we are. And part of it is a responsibility of our allies, of our colleagues, of our overall workplaces, to be transformative in acceptance. To say, we’re going to break down some of these unspoken rules that have denied people to be their best disabled Black self, all of these different things. So yeah, I think that’s a couple of things that I would initially note in this segment.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Yeah, absolutely. And I’m so glad you mentioned code switching. It’s like even showing up as your full Black self is like a privilege, which it shouldn’t be. But most people don’t have the privilege to show up as their authentic Black selves, let alone their authentic Black disabled selves in the workplace.

Keri Gray:
Yes, absolutely.

Ashley Inkumsah:
There’s still so much work to be done and so much fear that Black disabled people are living with in the workplace, in society as a whole. And I think the work that you’re doing is so crucial and important to addressing that problem.

Keri Gray:
Yeah, thank you. No, I appreciate that. We got some things to do.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Yes. And you’re doing it to the best of your ability. I know that you are, and I know the Disability Justice Framework as well is looking to address this problem. And how do you think that, or I should say, why do you think that the Disability Justice Framework is so important to Black women?

Keri Gray:
Yes, so many reasons. I think I want to answer that by paying a little tribute to our living icon, the great Simone Biles. I don’t know if anybody who’s listened has heard the name, I’m assuming a lot of people have, but just in case, she is one of the greatest athletes of our time, one of the highest competing folks in the Olympics in her sport of gymnastics. She is a Black woman with disabilities. She is incredible, and she has been so great at what she’s done. She has been so dominating in the sport of gymnastics that the whole world has been watching her. And so I mention her when I think about disability justice, particularly for Black people, for Black women, I think about her being open about having ADHD and what that did to the sports industry, a sports industry that doesn’t like to see their athletes take medication. But Simone Biles having to be outspoken and advocate for her as a person with the ADHD needing to have her accommodation, needing to have access.
And I mentioned that because if you compound that one, with just the bravery it takes to speak out on your needs, knowing the stigma and the layers of just like, we don’t want to touch that, that exist in your industry is noted. But that having to come from the voice of a Black woman where she is still a minority in such a high profile industry, it takes bravery for that. So disability justice I think is imperative because it calls on us to exceed these examples and to create space for new realities. That’s all to mention before we even get into what happened last summer with the Summer Olympics and her choosing to step down. That was a moment of disability justice that was incredibly important for Black people to witness. Black people who time and time again have been put in situations where you cannot put something down, you have to be willing to break your body to make it to the finish line.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. And then we have the strong Black woman trope where Black women, just so much pressure and so much labor is put on our backs. And the amount of courage that you have to have to be able to say no and set a boundary. That takes a lot as a Black woman.

Keri Gray:
As a Black woman in particular. And you know what’s interesting? I was having this discussion with a group of predominantly Black women actually. This was about a month ago, and there were several women in the audience who said, “I don’t think I would’ve been able to do it.” Like you, they were still in that place of that saying no, such as what Simone Biles did was a concept and an idea that they wrestled with. I don’t know if that’s possible for me. I don’t know if that’s something that I even could even think about doing. That says a lot about the level of ableism that exists in our society and that is placed on the shoulders of Black women. So I think that example that we got from Simone Biles I’m incredibly thankful for. And it’s necessary because it shows us that it’s okay. And it shows us, not only was it okay, but we surrounded her with love and support after that decision. And that is disability justice. That is how it shows up in our lives. It protects us in so many different ways when we apply it.

I think it’s important to note in this Simone Biles example of her bravery, but also how her team had to respond and be equipped to respond to moment when disability justice enters into the workplace. So in other words, when Simone Biles comes in and says, “It’s a no for me, I need to take a step back.” Her team has to be willing to immediately say, “Okay, we got this right.” And one of the issues that people have oftentimes in the workplace is we can’t give grace to people who need to protect their bodies and their minds because then the work falls in the platter.
But when you have these principles of disability justice, there’s always going to be a level of interconnectedness. There’s always going to be a level of interdependence in the workplace that says, “We are going to be okay if someone has to protect themselves, because ultimately, collectively the team is going to make sure the work gets done at the end of the day.” So those are principles that I want for our listeners, our colleagues, our teammates to be wrestling with of if you’re in the middle of your Super Bowl, if you’re in the middle of your Olympics and a team member comes up to you such as what Simone Biles does, how are you going to respond to that? What is going to be the principle that makes sure that things go well in terms of how we’re creating inclusion in the workplace?

Ashley Inkumsah:
And I’m so glad that you brought that up, the concept of a team, because we even see within the Black community that we’re not always all on the same page. We talked about Kanye earlier and early on in all of his antics, so many people in the Black community enabled it. They said, “He’s just not taking his medication.” Or whatever, “He’s mentally ill. And that’s why he said. Oh, you don’t understand.” So on and so forth. And for so many years, his behavior was enabled within the Black community. So my question to you is, how can Black disabled men, Black people who are LGBTQIA+ and even non-disabled women, how can they have a cross movement solidarity as the Disability Justice Framework encourages us to do? How can they form those bonds and relationships so that they can join the disability community in this fight for collective liberation?

Keri Gray:
Absolutely. I want to give three key recommendations, and I appreciate that question. With the work that we do at the NAMD Advocates, it’s very much about how can we empower disabled BIPOC folks and BIPOC allies. That is important to us as disabled people, we’re not leaving our family behind. We are joining forces with our community to create it stronger. That is the premise of intersectionality. So I think when I’m thinking about the relationships that our BIPOC allies, our Black allies have to the disability community, I want to give three recommendations.
One, I want to say it begins with our principles. What we were just discussing with Simone Biles and the type of principles that her team had to possess. When we’re talking about disability justice, it becomes a moment for us to wrestle with how do we treat each other? How are we examining, for instance, COVID protocols as we’re transitioning into post pandemic world at a racial justice organization? How do we handle people being able to talk openly about disability identity? What principles are we sharing with each other in order to create acceptable workplaces?
The second recommendation I want to give is that cross collaboration will keep this going. So I want to recognize that there are likely a lot of BIPOC allies and Black allies who are still learning about what disability inclusion is, about what disability justice is, how does that relate to what happens in their personal life? How does that relate to what happens in the workplace? Really trying to figure it out. And the best way, outside of just research and reading about it, it is the relationships that you build with others. There are so many organizations out there that are doing incredible work at the intersections of racial and disability justice. And finding out who are the pockets of people, the organizations, whether that’s on a national or local level that you can do something with is important.

Because it’s likely that both of your groups are doing something about voting and you can get together and join forces and learn from each other. It’s likely both of y’all are doing something about employment. So I’m using the NMAD Advocates as one example, and folks being able to say, “We want to collaborate with you so that we’re constantly learning from each other, we’re amplifying, we’re figuring it out.” That makes a difference.

And the final recommendation I want to give is about equity driven programs, the need to recognize the disparities that Black and brown disabled folks are experiencing. So an example of that, for instance, is this year I was able to work with the Coachella team. Coachella being a festival that happens in California every year. A lot of large entertainers. Kanye was actually supposed to headline last year and things happened. But it’s a big platform, it’s a big stage, and it’s all about live events. And working and collaborating with Coachella this year, we were able to build a program called Accessible Plus, and it’s a groundbreaking program where we are working with BIPOC disabled folks and getting them entered into the live events industry. We are looking for folks who are interested in production, we are looking for artists. We are looking for people who are interested in so many different industries that can contribute to what happens at platforms such as Coachella.

And that program was intentional, it was intentionally built for BIPOC disabled folks who are constantly overlooked in our initiatives and efforts to create access. And so I want to use that as an example of what other organizations and companies can be doing. What are the mentorship programs that are intentional about reaching BIPOC disabled people? What are the talent programs that are intentional about reaching our community? There are so many options of ways in which we can reach folks, but there has to be that intentionality of equity and driven program. So I want to give those three recommendations of so many ways in which people can plug in, but build some principles around this work. Look at the 10 principles of Disability Justice, cross collaborate with people and hone in on the equity driven programs and how they can be connected to BIPOC disabled people.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. I would say in the words of the late great Fannie Lou Hamer, “Nobody’s free until everybody’s free.” So we are all working with each other to make that happen. We should be anyways.

Keri Gray:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And I know you already kind of spoke to this, but is there more work that you’re doing that addresses specifically those intersections that we all live in?

Keri Gray:
So the NAMD Advocates, I want to encourage folks to check us out online. Our website is with withkeri.com, that’s W-I-T-H-K-E-R-I.com. And then you’ll be able to see the NAMD Advocates at the top of the website. And so I mentioned this a bit earlier, but we are a space that is all about disabled BIPOC folks, and our BIPOC allies being able to convene around racial and disability justice. We believe in defiant celebrations of who we are, recognizing that representation is so important. I mentioned earlier about my journey of disability inclusion, and it took a long time for me to be open about disability, about my disabilities. But the moment I started to see representation, the moment I started to be surrounded by people who showed me what confidence looked like, something shifted in the ways in which I go about things.
So we create those spaces where people can talk about subjects such as being sick in a Black body, where people can share their experiences and celebrate each other. But we also create spaces where we can learn and grow. During the summit that I mentioned on December 12th, I want to encourage folks to check it out, look at our website, register to attend. We’re going to be talking also about the economic empowerment of people, of disabled BIPOC folks. We’re going to be looking at what are the disparities, but also what can we learn in terms of prosperity? What do we need to be talking about? How do we need to be learning from other entrepreneurs? How do we need to be learning from other managers, directors, executives, about genuinely advancing our careers? So we know the disparities that happen, but how can we elevate those who are on a pathway? So we’ll be looking at that.

We’ll also be looking at BIPOC innovation. We’ll be looking at the idea that there’s so many of us out here who are building programs, initiatives, are hungry to do good work, and we want to inspire that. We want to motivate the ways in which you’re thinking about innovation. We plan on having such representatives from folks such as the Coachella program, from other initiatives that are doing very innovative projects and programs that are designed from the experiences of BIPOC people. So I want to encourage folks to check it out, get involved, know that this is a community and space for you where we’ll equip you with the resources that you need.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. That sounds amazing. I definitely need to check out that event. It sounds amazing. I’m definitely going to write that down so I don’t forget it.

Keri Gray:
This is our power. Yes, December 12.

Ashley Inkumsah:
December 12th. Got it. Yes, absolutely. It sounds amazing. And my last question that I want to ask you is, I know you’ve gotten to this place of being so confident within your Black disabled womanhood, but I’m sure that was a journey because I know it is for so many of us. So what advice would you offer to other Black disabled women who are not there yet, who are still struggling to navigate this racist, anti-black, misogynistic, ableist society that we all live in?

Keri Gray:
Absolutely. I think I would say two things. So one, I would say I would encourage folks to lean into community. I mentioned that as part of my journey when I was able to find sisterhood, when I was able to find real fellowship and the type of fellowship that, when I think about that, people who will lift your spirits, going through all of the different things that you’ll experience in life, being misunderstood, overlooked, just having questions, inevitable things that are part of our career and personal journey, that community makes all of the difference. The people who remind you of your power, the people who will equip you with resources and connections and say, “I see you trying to do your thing. I know you need some help and some support.” We need those people in our life.
So I would say now is the time to find your tribe and find the place in which you can be in fellowship with one another. The NAMD Advocates is one space for that. You can join our email list, you can follow us on social media. We’ll stay in touch with you, and finding ways for you to get involved and get connected with people. But leaning in community is very important.
The second thing that I would do is honestly give you a little bit of call to action. For those of folks who are on that journey, as many of us are and are figuring out how to navigate all of these different things that are going on in society, I want to give a call to action for that innovation and imagination. I want for folks to be willing to activate the dialogue on racial and disability justice. It is imperative that we’re talking about this. It’s imperative that we’re talking about identity, workplace acceptance programs, initiatives, the ways in which this translates into policy and procedures. There is a lot of work to be done, and our community will only thrive from that, from you being involved in it.

So when I think about one, in terms of supporting yourself, leaning into community is important. But I also want to say that we need you as part of this work. We need folks to be involved and willing to speak up on it, and who will examine the transformative ways to do this work. So it’s an invitation to be a part of it, and I can’t wait to continue to connect with as many of folks as possible.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And I think that within the Black community, there’s always this, not always, but there’s certainly a sector of the community that falls into this thought of respectability politics and not wanting to be too radical in our thoughts. But I think that we all need to unite and unite under Black radical disabled thinking in order to change this world. We need that desperately.

Keri Gray:
Absolutely. I could not agree more. And think about the fact that thankfully, we live in a day and time where there are some examples of that. I mentioned Simone Biles earlier, Megan Thee Stallion. I’m talking to hip hop people that is following her platform. She recently launched a lot of information in a platform about mental health, and she did it in a way that speaks to us. We know she’s talking to people who look like her, that sound like her, that come from all different types of walks of life, and she respects that diversity. And so I want to translate that into what you were just saying in the sense of being a part of this process of building these initiatives. And I understand, I ain’t trying to disrespect folks who … Respectability politics, but we’ve got a lot of work to do to connect to people who have been left behind. And so pushing beyond that will make a big difference.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Absolutely. I’m so glad you brought up Megan. I think Megan is such a great icon of just cultural … Just like Black feminist icon at the moment. And I just love her unique brand of how I think she’s exceeded her music at this point. She stands for so much more. All the things that she’s been through as a Black woman. Not being believed when she speaks out about her stories, which the disability community can relate to that too. And just she really is an empowering figure right now.

Keri Gray:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And so are you. You are doing amazing work. So thank you so much for this awesome conversation. This was amazing. I loved thinking out loud with you and just, yeah, this was great. I loved it. Thank you so much.

Keri Gray:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And thanks to you all at home as well for tuning into today’s episode. And you can find transcripts in American Sign Language interpretations for today’s episode, as well as all of our past episodes at www.whats-up-wid.org. And secondly, if you enjoyed today’s episode, you can help us continue to make more episodes by visiting anchor.fm/wid-org and clicking on the support button to send us a monthly donation to help sustain future episodes. So thank you again, Keri. This was amazing, and definitely everyone should go to withkeri.com and learn more about all the amazing work that you’re doing.