What’s Up WID: Climate Justice for People with Disabilities Transcripts

Pauline Castres, a white woman with short brown hair smiles for headshot photo.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Welcome or welcome back to What’s Up WID, the World Institute on Disability Podcast, where we discuss what’s up in the global disability community. If you’re new here, I’m your host Ashley Inkumsah, and I am super pleased to be joined by Pauline Castres on today’s episode. Pauline will be telling you a little bit more about herself shortly, so I’ll be super brief. Pauline is a climate change, disability rights and global health policy and advocacy professional, with over 10 years of experience working with local and national governments, European union institutions and UN agencies. Now, Pauline and I are going to be discussing the importance of climate activism for people with disabilities.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Now, just a couple of notes before we get started. First, you can find transcripts and American Sign Language interpretations of today’s episode and all of our past episodes at www.wid.org/whats-up-wid. Second, if you enjoy today’s episode, you can also help us to continue to make more episodes by visiting anchor.fm/wid-org and clicking on the support button to send us a small monthly donation to help sustain future episodes.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Now, without further ado, please join me in welcoming the wonderful Pauline Castres as a guest on our podcast. Thank you so much, Pauline, for joining us on today’s episode of our podcast. Now, the first question that I always like to ask all of our guests before we even get started is, how are you doing today?

Pauline Castres:
I’m all right, thank you. It’s a very rainy day in London. It’s actually a flood warning in my area. So very relevant for today’s conversation, I guess, unfortunately. But how are you?

Ashley Inkumsah:
I’m great. I’m just super excited to finally be able to chat with you. I’ve been a fan of yours and watching you from afar for some time now, so it’s so awesome to finally get the opportunity to sit down and chat with each other.

Pauline Castres:
That’s lovely, thank you. Likewise.

Ashley Inkumsah:
For those of our listeners who may not be familiar with you and the work that you do, can you briefly please explain your background and all of the climate activism work that you do for the disability community?

Pauline Castres:
Yeah, so my name is Pauline Castres, which despite being very Spanish sounding, which I’ve inherited from my grandparents, is actually French. I’ve spent the past decade working in policy and advocacy, so I’ve been wearing quite a few different hats. I’ve worked for medical journals such as the British Medical Journal and the onset on the intersection of climate and health. So looking at the core benefits of approaches that would both tackle climate change and improve health. I also worked on gender equality, education and disability rights through the implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Disabled People, the UNCRDP. Also worked for UN agencies on global vaccination chains and malnutrition. And more recently I’ve been working on the implementation of local climate emergency plan in the UK. So yeah, quite a few different things.

Pauline Castres:
I’ve led quite a few different campaigns. I’ve worked on a campaign on antimicrobial resistance, which won an award, which was really nice. And also I’ve done some research and I think the one I’m proudest of is when I was at the British Medical Journal, we led a research project with Kings College, where we looked at air pollution levels around hospitals. Just to get an idea of what people, especially patients, were exposed to and whether, believe it or not, but it’s not really data that you find easily. So we had to overlap quite a few data sets in order to get that. I think throughout my career I’ve always tried to instill a little bit of the disability rights discourse, but I will talk more about my [inaudible 00:04:18], that was successful, but then I decided to actually go ahead and do a little bit more of my own thing because I’ve really noticed that climate and disability wasn’t the most prominent thing, whether it was in the disability rights space or in the climate space.

Pauline Castres:
So I’ve done number of things, I’ve done podcasts, I’ve done videos, I’ve done articles, I’ve done trainings for environmental organizations. More recently, I’ve actually been selected to be part of a project led by Margaret Atwood, which is called Climate Utopias. So it’s basically, we’re going to be looking at what vision we can build for society in terms of climate justice. So it’s not just trying to solve climate in panic mode, which I think a lot of us are trying to do, but actually thinking what do we want to see for down the line. And what else? I do a little bit of art as well, not so much recently because our mobility has changed quite a bit, so it’s a bit of a transition. But I’ve done quite a few artivism pieces, which is a mixture of art and activism and also I’ve been working on my first novel at a really slow pace. So yeah, that’s made a nutshell.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Awesome. You just have so much going on. It’s hard to even keep up with all the amazing things that you’re doing, but I’m super excited for this novel that you’re talk. That sounds amazing. I can’t wait to read that.

Pauline Castres:
Thank you.

Ashley Inkumsah:
That’s awesome. So I know that you have spent over 10 years working with local and national governments from the European Union institutions, United Nations agencies, et cetera, et cetera. What are some of the main issues that you have learned about regarding the intersections of climate activism and disability activism?

Pauline Castres:
Well, I think the first observation is the absence of it and the lack of awareness, the lack of action and almost apathy, I guess, in some spaces. And when disability was mentioned in the climate space, it was usually through a very narrow medical lens. And by that I mean the vulnerable conversation I know is ongoing in the disability rights space about whether or not it’s something that people relate to and also whether or not it makes us object of medical care rather than helps us be considered as participants. It’s really interesting because in the climate space, we were there under that umbrella term of the vulnerable, but there was never any consideration for, are people actually in the room? Are they actually part of the decision making process? It was very much, “We know what’s best for you, we include you, but only as as objects.”

Pauline Castres:
And the word disability itself popped up quite a bit in terms of disability adjusted years of life, which is an indicator that is used quite widely in the health community about the future impact of whether it’s a pandemic or whether it’s climate change. We look at it through this lens, but again, it’s looking at disability through this, in the future people will become disabled because of whether it’s humanitarian crisis or pandemics or extreme climate events, but it’s not really, actually, people are already disabled aren’t part of the solution. They are not even considered as people, which unfortunately I think is something in terms of being human beings and being equal is a much broader conversation, but it’s quite visible in the climate space.

Pauline Castres:
And at the same time, I think that there’s been a lot that’s been going on in the climate space in terms of bringing all the narratives. So you’ve got gender, there’s been really important, I think also indigenous people and people of color. There’s been a lot of this conversation coming into the climate space. The health one is also a big one, especially mental health, has really been increasingly been a focus of a lot of organizations. But the whole disability rights wasn’t really properly included in either of these spaces. And because of that, when they came to climate, when we talked about, for instance, gender and climate, because the gender space has never properly considered the disability rights issue, they came with their own commitments and their own demands, but they basically didn’t bring a disability. They didn’t bring an intersectional approach in a broader sense, but they also didn’t bring disability. And so at the same time, if I look at the all the piece of the puzzle, which is the disability right space, I think it’s really slowly changing.

Pauline Castres:
I’ve seen that climate change is really something that people are interested in, a little bit afraid of. Obviously, there’s a lot of anxiety, but also I think because it’s such a big, technical, complex thing, I think a lot of disabled people do not know where to start. And it’s really anxiety inducing for good reason. And in the disability right space, I think we’re just so focused on the very basic human rights that we’re still seeking around education, around employment, around access to healthcare, around basic inclusion that I think climate just seems like a very distant threat that, depending on the country you live, obviously, if you live in the global south, it’s something that I’ve noticed that a lot of DPOs, especially, are much more aware of this.

Pauline Castres:
Especially when I worked on education, I think a lot of people were looking, especially in the global south, a lot of people have to pay for education. And a lot of people rely on income from farms and growing food. And because of droughts, a lot of the incomes were cut. And as a result, families had to decide which kids were going to school and usually kids with disabilities would be the ones who would end up not going to school. Or actually just going to school if you’ve made it accessible in any way. And then there was a flood of fires that, whatever you had built to make it accessible, was destroyed. And because governments didn’t have any money, they wouldn’t build it back. So yeah, it’s considered a distant threat, depending on the country we live, I think. But even in the global cells, I’ve seen DPOs a bit struggling with where to start and how to include it. And I think a lot of governments don’t have climate at the heart of everything they do and certainly don’t have disability at the heart of what they do.

Pauline Castres:
So they usually work in silos and don’t properly look at it. But I would say that it’s really great that the disability rights space is really fast changing, but if you look at the UN CRPD for instance, there’s nothing about climate change. You can extrapolate some of the wording from the UN CRPD to make it make sense in the climate space, there isn’t a proper reference to it. I think this mixture of the two really made me realize that there’s a need for it and especially if you look at mitigation. So obviously, adaptation is about how do you adapt to a changing world, but mitigation is about trying to reduce the impact of it. It’s about trying to limit emissions right now, not just adapting to the fact that there will be more emissions that, unfortunately, we would have wanted.

Pauline Castres:
And mitigation is a very time limited conversation. So basically if we don’t do it now, we’re just going to be part of adaptation conversation. We’re just going to be part of conversations about what kind of exit strategy do we have in case there’s a flood in our area, or in terms of climate displacement. Who is prioritized? What is the shelter looking like? Is it accessible? But we’re not really part of the mitigation conversation, which is actually about reshaping society and there are a lot of policy initiatives right now. For instance, one that is quite big in the UK is the 20 minute neighborhood, and it’s about being able to enjoy your local community. But because they haven’t really considered disabled people in many of those initiatives, it means that something that is being built now around environmental standards and to try, for instance, to improve health, the law focus on cycling or walking, which is great, but unfortunately a lot of disabled people cannot walk more, or at all, or cannot cycle.

Pauline Castres:
And there isn’t really a conversation about public transport or making it accessible to people. My takeaway would be that it’s slowly coming together and I don’t know, there’s been a lot of work done by some people behind the scene to try and push that. But I think, and I’m hoping that in the next few months and years the disability rights community is really going to embrace that and the climate change community is also more and more embracing the disability rights agenda, even though they know very little about it. So I think it’s slowly coming together, but the focus is really on the word slowly.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And I know that one of the ways that you are addressing the lack of inclusion of the disability community in climate activism is that you’re setting up a platform to train climate activists on disability issues and to train disability activists on climate issues. What do you feel are the top concerns that you would like to teach both groups and how will they be addressed on the platform that you’re developing?

Pauline Castres:
So I’ve thought long and hard about this because three is a really hot number to stick to. So I think trying to summarize, I would say the first thing is thinking about a right-based approach for both group. Because actually if you look at climate, recently the UN has green lighted, there was a whole process around recognizing climate change, the right to a healthy environment as a basic human right. And there’s a lot of conversation about, obviously there’s the medical model, the social model and charity model, but the human rights model is really, really important in disability right space. And I really think that for both groups it’s really important to look at each other from the rights perspective. I’m not saying that there might not be conflict. For instance, I know a lot of environmental groups have been using environmental law to oblige governments to put in place measures. And those measures could actually disproportionately impact disabled people if they’re not done in a fair way.

Pauline Castres:
So I’m not saying that they might not be conflict here, but it’s actually a really interesting area to look at. And I think when I do trainings with environmental organization, I always start by explaining what a right-based approach is. Because I think it’s really about respecting disabled people, looking at them as human beings and considering looking at us with dignity and respect. And that is unfortunately not the case, and I think it really impacts the way we are included. So the right-based approach is really important in that regard. The other thing about right-based approaches is unfortunately is about implementation. So there’s always a problem that even if you have really great legislation or really great policy frameworks, the implementation might not be there, whether it’s for budgetary reasons, or because of lack of political will, or just because it’s inconvenient. It’s word I’ve heard a lot from policy makers. I don’t like it, but I hear that a lot. So that would be my other advice to them is looking at accountability behind any kind of legislation and how when they come together, they look at each other through environmental rights and disability rights.

Pauline Castres:
The second thing I would say is that I don’t think the climate space or the disability rights space is a very homogeneous group, especially the disability rights space. But also if you look at climate activists, if you take the case of what happened in the US with the latest environmental legislation and my Twitter feed was split into between people who said, “That is great.”, and other people who said, “No, this is not great.” And it’s very, very interesting conversation about what does low carbon means versus decarbonizing entirely, and what kind of mechanism are we putting in place if, for instance, we encourage more renewable energy in the mix, but don’t really try to, how do we try to reduce fossil fuels in the equation?

Pauline Castres:
So a really, really great conversation, but actually you’ll see that a lot of people disagree on how to do it, how fast and where and how to prioritize things. And I think the disability rights group, they also different approaches about how to work, what kind of wording do we use and how do we work with who and when. But also the fact that lots of disabled people have different needs, and that’s totally fine. It’s just about creating flexibility within frameworks. And once you create flexibility, you can create more flexibility. It’s not like flexibility is something set in stone. So I think that’s really important.

Pauline Castres:
And the last thing that I always keep in mind is the fact that we need systemic change and not really bandaid change. So I find it very frustrating when we’re trying to solve the climate crisis through this, “Let’s just do this one thing, let’s just do this one thing.” And not really thinking about the fact that the root causes of climate change are actually things around poverty, around how we treat and value people. So I think if we are going to change, if we are going to tackle climate change and protect the most marginalized, it’s not going to be because we are going to implement three, four policy measures to try and contain climate change. It’s going to be because we actually reinvigorate a model that has been running on empty and actually has been running on, I was going to say, on really extracting as much as you can from the planet and people.

Pauline Castres:
And I think it’s a system that relies a lot on not really nurturing, it’s not a system, it’s the whole conversation around hyper growth and productivity. What do we value and how and how do we value the planet and how do we value people? And I think right now we’re stuck in a system, obviously, of individualism. We are all pushed to work as much as we can. We’re all encouraged to adopt norms that are making people and the planet sick. And if we actually look at different ways of living, which I think the disability rights movement is really proactively pushing, we can actually achieve much better. And I don’t think we are going to solve climate change if we don’t address basic poverty, which is driven by norms and standards that should be challenged.

Ashley Inkumsah:
So with the rights-based approach, obviously we all know that there are limitations to it, and there are major oversights when it comes to the disability rights movement as a whole. And that’s where we have the disability justice framework and that’s where that comes in. And one of the principles of the disability justice framework is cross-movement solidarity. And I’ll also throw in there, leadership of the most impacted as well. Why is it so important for climate activists and disability activists to mobilize together? Because so many times, as we’ve talked about earlier, we see these movements as being separate. How do we get people to understand that they are interconnected so that these activists can all mobilize together?

Pauline Castres:
So I love that you mentioned disability justice, because in the climate space it’s also been a big change from talking about climate through that limited lens to climate justice, which is actually looking at how power is distributed within the climate policy space. And to answer your question, I think it’s not only we’re sometime considered as two groups that don’t really interact with each other, we actually sometimes presented by the media as confrontational. If you look at a lot of fights that are happening between cyclists and wheelchair users, for instance. Just considering the issue of how do you share space, or if you look at charging stations for electric vehicles and pavements for instance, it’s actually quite easy to see that there are a lot of fights that are arising from that, because policy makers haven’t properly looked at the equality aspect of it.

Pauline Castres:
And it’s quite shockingly in the UK, if you look at most environmental legislations around air pollution, for instance, there hasn’t been any equality assessment done as part of that, which is really, really shocking. But what I would say is we have so much in common, it’s really fascinating because the first thing we have in common is I think the frustration and the anger, different reasons, different types of anger. But I can see how this being this, there is this frustration, the fact that we keep saying the same things over and over and over, and we are always told to bring new facts and new stories to strengthen our case. And in a way it’s just always too little, too slow. And I think that frustration on both sides, unfortunately, that’s where sometimes it clashes that people have been, for instance, cyclists have been so frustrated about the lack of cycling infrastructure where, it’s mostly in the UK, bit also in other European countries, that if something is done and then you’ve got wheelchair users or someone else complaining about it, their first reaction is going to be, “Well, we fought so hard for this. Who is this person annoying me?” Basically.

Pauline Castres:
But I really do believe that we actually want to address the same systemic issues around how the world is shaped and how it’s always the poorest who bear most of the burden, whether it’s socioeconomic or health inequalities. So I think there’s really a lot in terms of, as I said earlier about productivity, what does that look like? How do we value people? How do we value the environment? And I think a lot of the economic model that we have in place right now, treat people the same way that we’ve treated the planet, is just extracting as much as you can and then just people on the planet being disposable and not really thinking about the long term aspects of it. Just thinking short term, what can we do with it? Because we don’t really take responsibility for what will happen down the line. And that is actually really reflective of our political system, which is short term. And that’s also why we have so little commitments and action is that policy makers are stuck in a space where they care a lot about the individual careers and going up the ladder.

Pauline Castres:
I’m not saying that everyone is a terrible politician, I’m just saying that the system makes it impossible, I think, even for the people with the best interest to make a difference. Because you’re stuck in a system where you’ve got to survive and you have so many other opponents even in your own political party. And also you’re going to be reelected down the line. So what are you going to want first and foremost is make sure that you are going to be in office again. So your commitments are going to be based on whether or not you have a chance of being reelected and anything that is going to be considered too extreme, i.e. whether it’s too expensive because it’s looking at social protection or whether it disrupts some businesses in terms of environmental legislation, it is obviously not going to be prioritized.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And why do you think that it is so important for multiply marginalized people with disabilities to be included and not only be included, but be leaders in climate-based activism?

Pauline Castres:
And the word leaders is absolutely critical here. It’s critical because those people are going to be the most impacted. Also, they’ve been the most marginalized. So whatever decision is made at a policy level, it’s very unlikely it’s going to reflect their rights and needs. So that’s why they need to be included because the policy making process has been very driven by one political class and one gender. So because of all of that, whatever decision is made, it’s very easy for those decisions to be made without any of that being considered. So if those people aren’t in the room, no one’s going to do it for them, whether it’s women, people of color, disabled people, LGBTQ+, it’s always the same story, is that we’ve had to make our voices heard in order for things to change, otherwise we wouldn’t have made much progress.

Pauline Castres:
And I think why it’s especially important here is looking at intersectionality as well, because I think that’s also why we have such a big failure in the climate space in terms of disabled people missing is, as I said, the gender movement, for instance, which has achieved great things, unfortunately, hasn’t really been able to engage and embed some of the issues that the disability and that disabled people are facing. And because of that now, even though they have really taken a really good chunk of the climate space, they haven’t brought the disability right issue with them. And what I see with the disability rights movement is really that we are taking all of those with us. And I think that’s really unique and just really great.

Ashley Inkumsah:
And I remember not too long ago you speaking out against the Glasgow Climate Pact and how it did not even mention people with disabilities. And we all know that disabled people are so often excluded from the planning process when climatological events, disasters, emergencies, when those kinds of things occur. How, though, can we compel the government to include the disability community in their planning and communication processes? With all of this in mind, that you just said about political ambitions and just the political system as a whole, sometimes preventing people from doing what’s right because they have their own political ambitions. How do we address that? How do we compel the governments globally to include people with disabilities and prioritize the disability community?

Pauline Castres:
I think one advice that often here is actually telling people to vote. And I always take that with a pinch of salt because the electoral system is kind of wrecked in itself. And, also, the fact that you only vote every few years doesn’t really enable change in the way that we want to see it. So sure vote, and I think voters rights, especially through the disability rights lens, is really, really important and needs to continue happening. But I think, for me, there are several things here.

Pauline Castres:
The first one is, I think we need to keep doing what we’re doing and trying to get better at pushing, repeating the same message as much as we can, finding new ways to engage. But I think, at the end of the day, there’s obviously the one issue which is austerity and the fact that I’ve seen lots of governments having really nice polished policy strategies and then no budget to implement that. And that always ends the conversation. I’ve had so many conversation with policy makers, whether it’s here, or in Brussels, or in the US where you talk about what you want to see and they say, “We agree, but we don’t have the money.” And there’s basically nothing else that is left to say in when that happens. So the first thing is really what is happening about austerity and how are we spending money. And is there any kind of oversight of how money is being spent? So there’s a whole conversation obviously around tax, I’m not going to even enter here. But I think that’s a really important one.

Pauline Castres:
The second thing is I really think that we, basically, need to reverse the question bit. It’s not how do we influence governments, but how do we keep them accountable? And I think right now, for me, the most important thing would be to have some kind of watchdog. So for instance, in the UK we’ve got the Climate Change Committee, which is an independent body that monitors what the UK government is doing. And they publish independent reports every year and even more regularly on more specific issues. And it actually gives you a really good overview of, practically speaking, what is being done and what needs to be done. And I think without the accountability, which only goes so far in a way, because it’s great that they do that, but then they leave it to people to do the hard work of pushing and keep pushing. But I think there should be better mechanisms around what have government promised. Because I think a lot of the issue here is that governments are promising a lot of things but not doing them, because then they say the frameworks are too complicated, too expensive, and then they know that people don’t have the energy or time or expertise to monitor all of that.

Pauline Castres:
So I think, really, in terms of accountability, whether it comes, obviously, from people who are marginalized that should be enabled. And one of the big things I’m always pushing for is, I really think in the current model, people are just struggling with everything, that there is no space for that. There is no space for them to think, “How do I keep my local government accountable?” And I’ve always considered starting a campaign just to try and have some kind of day during the working week or where that you don’t work, where you actually are trained on advocacy. And then you can have whatever issue you are interested in, if it’s transport, if it’s education. But I think citizens should really be in a position where there is space made for that learning to be an advocate part, because otherwise you just vote or you don’t. Or if you can’t, you don’t vote. And that’s your only engagement with that community. And otherwise you don’t know what the entry point is mostly because often there isn’t one.

Ashley Inkumsah:
Yeah. And how would you say, or I should say. What are some tips that you can offer to people with disabilities when it comes to practicing advocating for themselves or practicing resilience before, during, and after climate events and emergencies, disasters, and so on and so forth, occur? How can they be resilient? Because we know that the onus is on the governments to protect people with disabilities, but because they so often fail at that, how can people with disabilities be resilient during climate events?

Pauline Castres:
And it’s interesting that you’re using resilience. I know there’s a big conversation in the climate space as well about collective resilience, which I think is a term I prefer to individual resilience, which usually puts the onus on individuals. And that’s actually the next point I’m going to make. But I’m a strong advocate for maternalism, which is about how people can look after each other. And I really believe that after, it’s going to sort of bit green, but after 10 years of working in policy, my main conclusion is we’ve got to look after each other because I think things are wait too slow and not going to be good. And that might sound a little bit terrifying, but I really believe that support networks is, and not saying that people shouldn’t continue to do all the great work they’re doing to influence governments, but I do really think that we are going to be screwed if we don’t look after each other.

Pauline Castres:
So one advice that I usually give is, first thing is always, if there’s an extreme climate event or for any other reason, having a point of contact, someone you know who you can reach out to, I don’t know if you’ve got bother or if you just use your phone. But making sure that someone knows where you are and if there’s been an evacuation plan sorted out for you. For instance, I know individualized evacuation plans can be good. Also, having some kind of document where if you have to go to a shelter and you might not be able to communicate. I know for instance, I’ve got jaw problems, sometimes it’s difficult for me to communicate and if I’ve got something in written, it actually really helps me, especially in anxiety inducing situations you might want some kind of document that says, “These are my needs.” If I go to a shelter, this is all the things that I need. And if they are not with you, so that people can actually find them. Because if you’ve had to leave in a hurry, you might not have been able to take whatever you needed from your house.

Pauline Castres:
But any other advice is around things like subscribing to weather newsletter, especially, you can look up what’s happening in your area. But some regional governments have their own newsletter and some of them are adapted to disabled people, not all of them, but just so that you know if a flood is happening in your area. Also, there is usually quite good mapping of the flood risk in your area, so you should be able to look that up. Especially if it’s high, you can engage with your local council and say, “Hey, this is high. I’m disabled. What is being done about it?” And usually the answer will be not much. Especially in the UK, I know in the US especially because of Hurricane Katrina and other extreme climate events, you’ve got a little bit more in terms of adaptation. But in the UK it’s very, very limited.

Pauline Castres:
Other advice would be basic advice. Can you charge your wheelchair or any other appliances you need in advance? Do you have a plan B? Which I think we are the masters of, making plan B, because plan A usually doesn’t go as planned. So I think it’s just making sure that you’ve got options and just also having access to climate information in general. And I know people might not always know where to start, so that’s not an easy thing, but there are quite a few resources out there in terms of why climate change and how it can affect you. In terms of the basic advice, I think it would really be, make sure that someone knows about you if you consider it relevant and practical, have some kind of document that you can take with you and make sure that any kind of appliances, any kind of device, have a little safety emergency pack ready, basically, if you can.

Ashley Inkumsah:
I think that that is wonderful advice. Definitely a place to start. Obviously, I wish that we could solve all of these issues in the 36 minutes that we’ve been talking, but I hope that this is a step forward for, even if it just impacts one person and they can take this advice and utilize it in the next climate event, then we have succeeded. So thank you so much for this amazing, amazing conversation. I had so much fun. I learned so much in the short time that we were chatting, and it’s been such a pleasure. So thank you so much, Pauline. This was great.

Pauline Castres:
Thank you so much for having me. And sorry my cat has been disrupting the background a little bit.

Ashley Inkumsah:
No, totally fine. I love it. I love it. Absolutely. That’s the best backdrop that I’ve seen all week.

Pauline Castres:
She had to get attention one way or another.

Ashley Inkumsah:
My cats on the other side of my screen. So unlike you, I can’t have a beautiful backdrop like you, I’m very jealous. But yes, don’t apologize for that at all. I love it.

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